Saturday, March 16, 2013

Jon Vaughters : trying to educate the CLUELESS !

Road Race Cycling is in CRISIS ! Has been for some time now ! In an effort to help the tifosi , understand the    TeamOwner/Manager point of view , a Past Racer , retired from the actual Racing but now running a Team , took time out from his other responsibilities , to give those that hide/ live under the rocks , commonly known as the CyclingNewsForum Clinic , an insight to what a member of Cycling Elite , experiences. Drawing  on his vast experience as a Racer & now Team Manager , he has over the past four days , served up information on his current Thinking and past experiences .

Valuable insights could have been made available to those interested , since the CNF clinic is available to ALL that wish to pose questions . Getting answers depends on the quality and form of the questions posed .I think that a larger group of people view what takes place than offer comment . Some of those that comment though , would be regarded in society with distaste , i could describe them as pyrannas in a feeding frenzy . It reflects badly on the so called " Moderators ", that they allowed some longer term commenters , to overstep the bounds of decency .

As a resource to stay abreast of Cycle racing , Cycling News is close to the best available . Most Racers would be aware of this site , since they find themselves interviewed when they achieve something of note . The Forums are no doubt also visited by the Racers and others working with the Teams . Doubtless those people would also be aware that Jon Vaughters tends to post comments in the " Clinic " occasionally . Any that are following this thread in recent days :

will have now seen that there is absolutely no respect for them , their Teams or Team Owners . One wonders , if the Racers , when requested for future interviews , that they will oblige ? What is the purpose of " Moderators " when something , crawls out from under their rock , using an avator & untracable nickname , pose as " intelligent " , then tip a bucket of sewerage , over someone that enters the thread with " CONFIRMED CREDENTIALS "! That this person has a past that he has PUBLICLY declared and a current situation , which is the envy of many is not an excuse that is acceptable .

The following comment is an example of the crass stupidity displayed by a worm that hides behind a pseudonym :

  " Originally Posted by Benotti69 View Post
JV loves it here 

As for the other team owners. This place is read by all who can and talked about by all the rest of the pro cycling world.

As for 'venom', you tell that to the families of those who died from the peer pressure to dope in order to make it in the pro cycling world.

JV is naive to come on a forum and not expect fans to react with anger, cynicism and sarcasm towards a sport and one of its fromer dopers that has treated the fans with contempt at best, never mind the riders.

He says he wants to address it. Well it needs a revolution of action* to change something so ingrained in the sport that most who enable it think it is integral to the sport.

*Action = people in positions of power being removed from the sport for ever. I am talking UCI, DS, docs etc etc "

Earlier i had called on Jon Vaughters to help encourage more of his fellow Team Owners/Managers to add to the information that could be gleaned from the " Clinic "! My comment follows :

  "  JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting , something he is not paid to do , nor gives him a great deal of benefit .

In return , there are those that sit in judgement on his views , others that are outright insulting !

What do you suppose the other team Owner/managers think about sticking a toe in this cesspool ? Doubt ANY Racers feel inclined to do more than read the observations made here , why would they reveal their doubts about their personal difficulties in their career , when those that act like pyrannas , twist any input !

Too late now to encourage OTHER Team Manager/Owners to contribute their POV , since this season is getting busier . Why waste time on a bunch of NO HOPERS , that wish they were relevant to the Sport of Cycling !

JV , that you are taking the time to contribute , is appreciated , i have learnt a great deal more here from your recent 3 days of contribututions , than the time i spent at the tirreno-Adriatico , when i had several chats with this seasons racers .

JV , if you were on the outside of the Teams , what would you do to make the " Clinic " a force to be visited by Team Owners/Managers seeking to improve the SPORT of Cycling ? What could " Clinic Members " do that would make this FORUM a force with views & expectations to be listened to and respected ?

As some are aware , i have been naive in thinking that The Cycling Sport wants rid of the hierachy of the UCI , they do little of consequence to make this a reality . Those on the UCI Management Committee prefer to listen to the holders of the keys to the treasury , than those pontificating about what they are unwilling to do . "

 After posting the above comment , i had thought that some of the " Clinic " would support this initiative? How wrong could i be , the following comments , followed :


Originally Posted by skippy 
JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting , something he is not paid to do , nor gives him a great deal of benefit .

disagree. being in here helps him tremendously, imo.
he's selling himself as the anti-doping figure in the peloton.
no time to look for links now, but mainstream media love to quote him as the anti-doping flagbearer who even engages with the fans on internet anti-doping forums. in other words, being in here significantly increases his credibility in the eyes of the mainstream sports media. You don't have to be a wizzard to see the advantages, also in terms of sponsorship. It's clever, really.
Originally Posted by Fearless Greg Lemond 
...And yet Ricco stayed inbetween the believable w/k.
the believable w/k, another one of vaughters' red herrings.

Originally Posted by sniper 
important point. it's not as much about hesjedal as it is about the fallacy of the system, and how vaughters is in the habit of downplaying said fallacy.
basically the data don't suffice to say whether Ryder 2012 was clean or not, yet there comes jonathan assuring us he was clean because the data say so.
JV is, imo, playing with the clinic half the time while using it for his own ends the other half, whether to be one of the 'lads', push his anti doping profile or gets off teasing hardcore fans.

But it is simple( if expensive) if a team wants to prove it is clean. Make the riders live in European mainland for the duration of the season from 2 weeks before their 1st European race to Lombardia and get them independently tested for a bloodpassport to then be published at the end of the year.

Yes this would probably be expensive but it only need to be done to team leaders and super doms. Obviously a team like Sky should do all as we are told they are all super talented but a team like Garmin needs only do a max of 10 riders.

That teams are not intrested in proving they are clean says a lot about the sport. They all think signing up to MPCC means they are clean. Bollixz.

If MPCC was about clean cycling they would be calling for similar and setting it up with wada. Doesn't need UCI and if worked UCI would have to adopt it.

JV calls the current situation a utopia, i think he is blinded by Hesjedal's Giro, which he probably never foresaw for a team like his, but as a fans, the answer to how that was achieved is the same answer levelled at all past Gt winners with few exceptions, till something proves it different. Hesjedal aint no LeMond.

 Originally Posted by horsinabout 
JV talks a lot about his experiences......which is admirable, and telling.

Because he is still involved in high level professional cycling, there is a kind of juxtaposition in what he writes, regarding his experiences from the past and now in the present.

He is clashing here in the forum with idealism from posters and what he really knows is going on in "the real world" of pro racing.
And what does he really know vs what he is saying in here? BTW, how do we know this is really JV?

Anyway, the whole clean schtick and his presence in here has always been an enigma to me. Why does he profess clean cycling, with the implication being the others are dirty? Why would this be good for the sport from a sponsorship side...why would Garmin sponsor a team that will be competing against dopers and thus losing alot, and being associated with a sport so full of dopers that a selling point of certain teams is no PED use? But, they don't lose alot...they even won a GT last year.

To sniper etal, why would JV say anything other than what he is saying about SKY, and either sound like a sore loser or open himself up legally, or be ushered out of the sport pronto? And, how can he defend his clean rider's winning GT's against doped competition if he starts saying everybody else is doping?

What does he gain by posting here, opening himself up to contradictions and criticism? I asked early on in this thread a question, which never got answered until a few pages ago; why ask for so much more testing $ if things are clean? I guess it took him a few months to come up with an answer is to thwart off future improved drug use else this clean time will go away. This is the first I have heard about this. How novel, and not too believable IMO.

I gravitate back and forth on whether this guy is really doing alot to improve the sport or if he is full of ****, ****ing with everybody. That means the forum, the sport, everybody. Coming in here and not being able to say certain things or promoting cleanlilness, rightfully so in my mind with the SKY thing because of the situaton, is a no win situation.

Promoting cleanliness in the sport while qualifying the shadows is a no win situation. Asking for 3x more testing $ while winning GT's makes no sense. If I was him I would just STFU but he keeps on. It makes no sense to me.

Of course I also stated LA should just pay people off and go off in the distance and admit nothing, before his buffoonery on Oprah. I don't have a good recent track record in predicting what idiots will do or why they do what they do. There is absolutely no benefit for him being in here and alot of downside, which makes me want to believe him even if I think he is an idiot for doing so. That flies in the face of the factual inconsistencies pointed out by non-starstruck posters which cannot be ignored, and casts doubt.
_________________________________________________ Quote:
Originally Posted by horsinabout 
Yes it is most perplexing isn't it?

In cycling where extensive doping programs are introduced you are either in or out...shake it all about. If your out, you would come on the forum - with conviction? shake it all about?
You think he comes on here with conviction? How can he do that, with whatever repurcussions are flying around? Posters want him to come on here and jam riders and teams who are beating his allegedly clean riders and he gets sued and kicked out of the sport, while his clean riders are beating dopers he is jamming in the Giro. WTF? It's like a who's on first routine.

Or, you believe him that everything is mostly clean and 3x more money is needed for the future, while skirting around the points that posters have brought up in here about the present? That too sounds like BS.

I have no idea whether either his riders are doping on their own or if there is something team wide, or if things are as clean as he says in the peloton. This forum has no idea whether or not they are seeing a clean performance or not. It's the clinic way, eternal pessimism, and the public thinks all cycling is are dopers anyway. Hypocrisy abounds in the clinic, and if anybody believes JV on face value then they should GTFO of the clinic and never question any riders, like the joke 2011 of Gilbert.

JV can't prove any of those things one way or the other, as has been shown in here. So, what is the point, not only in posting in here but his whole gig?


Originally Posted by Benotti69 
JV loves it here 

As for the other team owners. This place is read by all who can and talked about by all the rest of the pro cycling world.
JV talks a lot about his experiences......which is admirable, and telling.

Because he is still involved in high level professional cycling, there is a kind of juxtaposition in what he writes, regarding his experiences from the past and now in the present.

He is clashing here in the forum with idealism from posters and what he really knows is going on in "the real world" of pro racing.

That's all I have to say on that, Forest Gump
You took ONE Guy, stuck your fingers in both of his eyes , spun him around , pointed at the door , and expected him to find his way out with Dignity?


Originally Posted by skippy 
JV gives the clinic an enormous compliment , by visiting .

No he doesn't. To be fair to the guy, sports fans in general can be kind of a weird premise for interactions with others, and your fawning is a good example of that. That said, Somewhere in this thread, he uses "Kiddos" as a reference for forum participants. That alone says volumes. It's fine if you wish to pretend otherwise, but it is pretending.

THESE and other comments caused Jon Vaughters to reply :

Today, 05:32
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 431

You guys are right. They all dope. *******s. And I'm a ******* too.

You won.

ok, since victory has been achieved, a round of back patting is in order.

Someday I can only pray to have the insight, intelligence, and clarity of the victors.

well done.

Wonder if this is the last time he takes note of what passes in this thread ? 

My comment to the " Clinic 2 after reading this :

"  CONGRATS W#*nk*rs !

You had the Op to see a little of the thinking of those that RUN Cycle Sport !

You took ONE Guy , stuck your fingers in both of his eyes , spun him around , pointed at the door , and expected him to find his way out with Dignity ?

WHO is going to come and treat YOU as Adults after that display of STUPIDITY ?

dirty works , says i am fawning !

All of you ignorants that know better than the Profis , hiding behind your avatars , deserve NO CREDIBILITY !

Even some of the " mods " , deserve a wake up call !

Too many times i have asked how the " Clinic " can be a " FORCE " in seeking a change , what a waste of effort that was !

Each of you scoring points off each other so as to acheive what ?


Less than NOTHING !

Get over yourselves , as a group , you are not worth the time of DAY for a Profi looking for a sense of what the Tifosi is thinking !

Back to Comedy , folks ! Who has the next segment of Joke a minute ? "

An Aussie comic posted this in reply :

Originally Posted by skippy View Post
CONGRATS W#*nk*rs !
Thanks Brad. Good to see you finally joined up. Good luck for the Giro, buddy!

Were i JV , ANY Cyclingnews journo , would be leaving empty handed , when seeking comment in any future contact with Garmin Team !

JV can contact me on should he wish . For what it is worth i follow JV on twitter as he posts links to a variety of Cycling Sites .

As for " dirty works of Clinic notoriety " , this is not about " fawning " , but had been about encouraging others to join , in " educating the GREAT UNWASHED & CLUELESS , in common decency . So many reading the " Clinic " choose not to descend into this cesspool of inhospitality !

A couple of people with a smattering of decency added :

  "  Quote:
Originally Posted by hrotha View Post
JV, you can say whatever you want to us, call us any names you can think of, but NEVER say we don't love cycling.
Actually, he's perfectly entitled to say that. He can say what he wants. I'm just not entirely sure why he wastes his time in here. Honestly, it's become like a cult. There's no arguing with a religious fundamentalist. Just smile, and go to the pub.

The only sensible response is to enjoy it for comedy value, and spend any actual anti-doping energy somewhere actually useful.

'The biggest zealot, the crazy zealots'', man, you have some issues. Take a chill pill.

If you do not like the Clinic you could always do yourself the pleasure by staying away.

Vaughters comes here to juggle with the monkeys who are trying to figure out how to crack the coconut, nothing more. And, sometimes, just to point us on a new release in the press coming soon. And yes, he gets confronted with the doping issue of the whole peloton, is that fair? Not entirely, but, hey, since when is life fair?


Originally Posted by Potomac View Post
The only reason to visit the clinic is to read JV's posts.
The only reason JV comes here is for the Clinic 12.


  "  Quote:
Originally Posted by BroDeal View Post
Right now Team Sky is making the sport look terrible. It does not matter if the team's riders are not doping. The results are such an outlier to what is usual, they smell bad. To make things worse, the sport is run by a moron. Can anyone imagine McQuaid as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company giving a quarterly earnings conference call. The market's faith in the company would fall off a cliff moments after he began speaking. The stock would crater.
Summing it up well ... Both observations are bang on.

  "    Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy View Post
CONGRATS W#*nk*rs !


Wow. really wow. 

You need more fiber in your diet.

That's the point I made a few days ago, a heartbreak thread...when you have people who say "let's look at what's going on and talk about it reasonably" and others who declare "I've looked at what's going on and I'll tell you how it is, oh and BTW Sky are a bunch of cheaters and dopers, that's not even open to discussion", not to mention that dude, the biggest zealot of course who made it to JV's ignore list (and mine) who knows so little about cycling that he confuses Lepheimer with Horner, what can you expect? It's a miracle it's gone on for so long.

Frankly I hope JV moves on to better things, like the forums outside the clinic where the crazy zealots can't indulge in their little crusade.